Forums of the Libertarian Left

Well, the Zapatista haven't brought about world Anarchy.

neverfox wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:I think I am a it more than just conflicted about this. I don't think I am down with all the violent parts of this. As much as I used to be down with something like this, an interest in the libpop militia movements, total hatred of cops and soldiers,huge gun rights and self defense advocate that I am, with every part of me believing that there will be a sort of battle of the bulge near the end, and all of that... I think I had an epiphany some time ago and realized violence is not a good means to an end. I think it just engenders more problems and tends to have perverse results. I think theres also some compassion for WHY the enemy the enemy that stops me from embracing violence. I'll hurl the invisible Molotov, but not the real one.

However I fully support the construction of non life taking Killdozers to demolish every government and affiliate building in Greece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhOGuazES1U

Dude, now here is something we agree on. My reaction was nearly identical to yours. I'm off to seek inspiration in some Tolstoy...

I thought we agreed on quite a lot.


To the point someone else raised about this being like a collectivized version of ancap private defense... which is basically voluntary collectivization/socialization of the costs of defense anyway... My problem is not with defense. It is with war. Defense is just, war is not. War is collectivist justice. It throws a blanket over a host of people and proclaims them guilty, firing indiscriminantly at those under the blanket with a MP5. Determining actual liability and proportional restitution/retribution is impractical for war and this is why war is unjust. Its just violence writ large. I guess I am not much of a window smasher or a cop burner. Ill tear down the walmart built on stolen land, Ill tear down the police station barracks, and other obviously unjust institutions with the glory of Killdozer (who ironically never killed anyone in the whole ordeal, all hail killdozer!), but I suppose I hold trial and rational determination of guilt as supreme. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, and then proper justice administered.

Well... that was rambling. Ill stop now.

On a tangent, just think of what happens in the US when a cop kills a teenager: absolutely nothing. The pig gets off with a few weeks suspension, at worst, and a few people complain, while many say "He had it coming!" In Greece, the cop is brought up on charges and there are riots in the streets.

More information! I asked on Anarchism.net for people's thoughts on the troubles. I also asked if Deadeye, a Greek Anarchist there who is currently involved in this action to provide his insider account. I'll simply copy and paste what he has said here.

Post 1

Mhmm, lets see.

First things first.
Before I jump into the events, I have to paint the whole picture.

There has been a feud between the police and anarchist groups since the fall of the greek dictatorship. Whenever there's a protest, you'll see anarchists setting up roadblocks, going head to head with the riot police, attacking banks, cameras etc. In 1985, a similar incident took place. A police officer shot dead a 15 year old anarchist, with a well aimed shot in the head. He was later released from all charges, a decision which erupted similar riots.

Traditionally, the athenian district of Eksarxeia was an anarchist headquarter. Mostly due to its historical role in past events, against the military dictatoship and many more. For that reason, the past, say, 10 years, it has been a target for police forces. It is now, informally, considered to be an anarchist asylum where no cop can enter under the watchful eye of our comrades there. For that reason, even the local police station of Eksarxeia has instructed its patrol cars to avoid by all costs certain areas that are literally under anarchist control.
Sometimes, cops managed to slip in for the sole purpose to harass some anarchist hangouts. These "challenges" would cause small scale wars in Eksarxeia district, with riot police divisions, supposedly guarding banks, entering an "anti-authoritarian area" just to confront scattered anarchists. It was typical once a week to have a street fight. Lately, this situation was being steadily intensified. On one hand, reporters would often mention that this police-free area had to be infringed, on the other hand, police officers with far right-wing beliefs were eager to provoke trouble, fueling the fire.

What I'm trying to say is, we all knew it would come down to this.

Post 2

And now, to describe what is "this".

A patrol car entered Eksarxeia, last Saturday night.
Like I said, they're instructed to remain in a certain pre-defined route, to avoid anarchist confrontations. (cop cars usually become a moving target for any kind of projectile when they drive by) These two cops are known from past events to challenge anarchists in the district, so this Saturday, they broke in. They bumped into a small group of underaged, some say anarchists, some say kids that were having their typical night-out. It matters not.
The cops were looking for trouble, so the moment they saw the kids, they assumed they were anarchists as it is a popular destination for people of such beliefs, even for entertainment purposes. They provoked those children, while in the cop car and were ousted for being bullies. The cops drove away, but came back on foot a few minutes later to settle the score. They exchanged words, nothing else but words. This is confirmed by numerous eye-witnesses, while mass media and the cops themselves were spreading, unsurprisingly, that the cops were attacked by a large group of enraged and armed anarchists. In the middle of the quarrel, one of the two cops pulled out his pistol and shot a kid dead with two shots, one in the belly and the second one in his heart. They both calmly walked away to their patrol car.

The quarrel was of such a volume, that the incident was filmed by a two kids in a balcony. I uploaded it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1wrDbw9KeQ and an edited version with more light, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvgUQcYgrn0
You cant clearly see the whole incident, but the two cops are standing alone in the street and there is no fight. Only a car alarm.

The cop speaks some final words, something that would be roughly translated as, "I'll show you what", and fires two shots. They can both be seen walking away.

The incident was first reported in the athenian indymedia, which is typically controlled by anarchists. The news were spread rapidly, causing spontaneous riots all over Greece.

Post 3

Right now, everyone is enraged. Not only anarchists but every Greek with minimal common sense. A kid was executed for talking back to a cop. It was not out of the blue, it was the product of an ongoing repression that has centered its efforts in the district of Eksarxeia.
Anarchists went on a rampage, myself included. We havent slept many hours, I just came back to rest a bit, wash the tear gas off my face and clothes, sleep a few hours perhaps, before I return to defend the roadblocks.

Excuse me for being incoherent, like I said, I'm tired, furious and my face is burning. I suppose you've been told a million lies, so I end this post with a list of anarchist targets, which are strictly political.

-The main target in EVERY Greek city and each district, are the police stations. I have lost count in how many areas they have been bombarded by rocks and molotov cocktails. Every cop in Greece should live in fear the following days to balance their arrogance with fear.
-Banks are the next best target. For a million reasons I need not explain in an anarchist forum.
-Cop cars. Luxurious cars. Civilian cars that belong to cops. (we know their plate numbers), they all made good barricades.
-Every grand store, of any type. Only the big money holders.
-Cameras.

I know it has been reported that small neighbourhood stores have been looted. Its true to some extent. Its quite usual for undercover cops to damage such types of property. Its also usual for hooligans to rush into riots. We bumped into a few of both kinds and chased them with sticks.
I can only speak for what I personally saw. And I saw extremely careful anarchists in what they were smashing and in a manner to avoid the lightest damage on parked cars . However, I can't deny the fact that there are exceptions.

Ask questions if you like, my mind is too much in a storm right now for accurate descriptions, especially while its still happening.

Peace.
Not.

You wanna see something about this that will make you mad?

Read this thread from these little rich poser kids from Something Awful

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=1

Fucking assholes.

It gets better towards the middle. Pretty bad, in general, though. Does anyone know anyone with a SA account?

In the footage uploaded by Deadeye, I don't see any molotovs...

CNN is still reporting this:

"A police statement about the teenage boy's death said the incident started when six young protesters pelted a police patrol car with stones. The teen was shot as he tried to throw a petrol bomb at the officers, police said."

Here's the link to the story: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europ ... storyemail

The SA thread links to this on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPfwXMg0 ... re=related

It's in Greek -- Royce (or any other Greek or quasi-Greek speakers out there), curious what your take on it is if you can follow it. I'm first-generation Greek-American but my Greek language skills stink. Even so, it seems to me that this completely contradicts the CNN story. There are interviews with several eyewitnesses who do not appear to fit the stereotype of bomb-throwing anarchist but are nevertheless unhappy with the cops' behavior. The consensus is that the killing was unprovoked, that the cops were not in danger (take this with a grain of salt, though, since I'm not so good at understanding Greek when it's spoken rapidly).

Also, the person commenting as "Master Gamawa" on SA is doing a pretty good job of promoting anarchist ideas (without identifying as one!) and holding his own against the rest of the SA crew.

CL

Capitalist tools! Poser assholes! They are worthless!

CNN is still reporting this:

"A police statement about the teenage boy's death said the incident started when six young protesters pelted a police patrol car with stones. The teen was shot as he tried to throw a petrol bomb at the officers, police said."

Here's the link to the story: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europ ... storyemail

I've blogged it with what information I have. http://theguerrillacapitalist.wordpress ... ek-unrest/

There are a lot of inconsistencies between the mainstream media reports of what is going on. The interesting thing is that the cops in question are now claiming it was a ricochet.

The SA thread links to this on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPfwXMg0 ... re=related

It's in Greek -- Royce (or any other Greek or quasi-Greek speakers out there), curious what your take on it is if you can follow it. I'm first-generation Greek-American but my Greek language skills stink. Even so, it seems to me that this completely contradicts the CNN story. There are interviews with several eyewitnesses who do not appear to fit the stereotype of bomb-throwing anarchist but are nevertheless unhappy with the cops' behavior. The consensus is that the killing was unprovoked, that the cops were not in danger (take this with a grain of salt, though, since I'm not so good at understanding Greek when it's spoken rapidly).

I'm in the same boat as yourself. I'm getting words here and there but nothing that gives me a clear picture. I'll see if I can get a better translation from Deadeye on Anarchism.net.

Also, the person commenting as "Master Gamawa" on SA is doing a pretty good job of promoting anarchist ideas (without identifying as one!) and holding his own against the rest of the SA crew.

He seems sympathetic.

Havoc in cities across Greece as protesters talk of 'social revolution'

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Havoc-in ... 4773233.jp

This could be a new May 68, guys.

The something awful forum just shows how important non-violent resistance is, cause you can not get the populous on your side with violent actions. It scares and uncomforts them to such an extent that they will turn against you and your little revolution will lead to nothing good in the end and be even greater diminished in effect and cause in anyway than if merely done by the government propaganda.

wombatron wrote:On a tangent, just think of what happens in the US when a cop kills a teenager: absolutely nothing. The pig gets off with a few weeks suspension, at worst, and a few people complain, while many say "He had it coming!" In Greece, the cop is brought up on charges and there are riots in the streets.

true dat homes.

"The socialists already held a strong lead in opinion polls before the riots, riding a wave of discontent at the ruling New Democracy Party's privatisations and pension reforms. Political analysts say an early election could be called next year."
I imagine they are most certainly referring to state socialism. Trading one form of conservatism for another will not solve anything. And again, all the destruction. I am not down with that.

thorsmitersaw wrote:I imagine they are most certainly referring to state socialism. Trading one form of conservatism for another will not solve anything. And again, all the destruction. I am not down with that.

Probably. Many social anarchists see Lennists and Social Democrats as allies, rather than enemies, for whatever reason. It's what killed by New Left during the 60s; the Maoists took over the movement and kicked the anti-authoritarians out, and the SDS gave way to the Weather Underground. Same thing happened during the Russian Revolution, if I recall correctly. The state-socialists use anarchists as foot-troops, and then betray them.

I was to the dentist today and the news was airing the Greece happenings on the radio. I commented that "The police killed, executed a little boy to the dentist.", seconds later the news report covered the shooting of a 15 year old male by the police and the dentist said, it is war down there.

Quite interesting tidbits of quick conversation, the dentist is a through and through dyed authoritarian socialist but peace and freedom is of course areas where one can easily find common understanding.

Alright, so Deadeye has kindly provided a translation of the video provided by ConvertedLefty with an additional explanation of the police testimony.

EDIT: I apologise for mixing up the name originally, ConvertedLefty. I was in a rush.

This video contains testimonies of some of the many eye-witnesses.

Here goes.

1st witness
-We saw them at some point, with guns in their hands walking down the street.
-Both of them?
-Both
-And? Where did they stop?
-Here, right here. They started cussing here, "Come here punks, come and settle this". Some kids approached.

2nd witness
-During this verbal fight, we saw no objects being thrown, suddenly one of them pulls out his gun and opens fire, straight ahead. We took a careful look and noticed someone on the ground, being dragged away by his friends, probably in fear that he would shoot again. Anyway, this is what happened, the officers were just standing still and then walked away. They turned away and left, on foot.

3rd witness
I saw the extension of his arms, I saw him aiming. The extension of his arms, not the position of his body. I was behind him. And he aimed. He aimed towards the other end of the street, towards that group.

4th witness
They were exchanging words. It was intense. Suddenly, without any other intervention, the patrol car abruptly departs and some time later the officers return. They stood in front of the kids and gunshots were heard. One of the kids, fell.

1st witness - resumed.
-3 shots?
-3 shots because he didnt hit him at first. This man wanted to kill. Simple as that.

5th witness
-We heard two bangs. I immediately understood it was gunfire from the sound of the very first shot. I heard the second shot, followed by a scream and a kid falling to the ground. We headed towards the kid, we dragged him away.
-What did the police do?
-The police turned their backs, as if nothing had happened, and left. We lifted his shirt, he was bleeding. We gave him CPR, the ambulance was late.

6th witness
-I saw the patrol car between Zoodoxou Pigis street and Tzavela street, it left but a minute later, the two drivers came back. They were both armed and they shot that kid, without a reason.
-Did you see them aiming?
-Yes, they were aiming.
-They didnt shoot up to intimidate?
-No, they shot the kids that were standing there.
-Did they see the kid falling dead?
-Yes, someone shouted that the kid was wounded, but they turned and left.


Those testimonies are a bit useless without knowing what the cops themselves testified.

They claimed they were attacked by a group of 30 hooded anarchists, with rocks, sticks and molotof cocktails, while in the car. They stepped on the gas to evade them, but later returned to arrest them. They were attacked once more and while in self defense, they threw a flashbang grenade, fired two shots in the sky to intimidate the attackers and one in the ground. The last one hit the ground but ricocheted.

They've been flipping their story until today. Their first two lawyers have already retired from their case, for ethical reasons. The ballistic examination was completed today. The bullet remained inside the body and it indicated that it came from a higher level (the pistol) to a lower level (the victim's body). If it was indeed a ricochet, the bullet would have entered from a lower level (the street) to a higher, the point of entry in the body.

At first, all media adopted the cop's case, spreading similar news worldwide.
Now, they talk about murder in cold blood.

Greeks cooperating with local anarchist groups are taking over greek embassies, all over Europe. Berlin, Hague, London and more that I'm not aware of.
Now, we're just making sure there wont be "one minute silence" goodbyes before we return to our daily routine. Alex will have the loudest and most fiery farewell.

Royce -- thanks so much for tracking that down.

CL

You're welcome. If you get any more information or leads, post them here. The more information the better.

Great info. I linked to here from another forum to try and get the word out.

There are reports in various indymedia sources that fascists and/or neo-nazis joined the ranks of the police in actions against the protesters.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2008 ... ed-the-m...

http://garizo.blogspot.com/2008/12/neo- ... olice.html

Yet more information. Rather than copying/pasting the whole thing here, I'll just link to my blog.

http://theguerrillacapitalist.wordpress ... unny-that/

the left promising voting rights at 16, disarmament but preservation of the pigs, a welfare state, etc. Those, in other words, who wish to capitalise political gains upon the wounds of others. The sweetness of their compromise drips with blood.

---Initiative from the anarchist occupation of the Athens School of Economics and Business

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/

Agorism in action!

A "citizen journalist", an English-speaker, is following the events in Greece from Thessaloniki:

http://teacherdudebbq.blogspot.com/

Check out his photographs (which are fantastic) and youtube videos. If you are inclined and have the time, read through his posts of the last two weeks to get an accurate summary of what's going on (unfortunately, you can't link to the individual posts in his archive, otherwise I'd link to the more interesting ones here). He discusses some sad stories concerning past cases of police brutality including an unprovoked beating he received last year.

CL