Forums of the Libertarian Left

Hello folks. Since -- in an understandable error of omission that could be rather depressing if one thought about it too much -- we don't have a News category in the Forums of the Libertarian Left, I thought I'd start a thread here about the Greek Anarchist murdered by teh cops in Athens, and the consequent riots that are happening across the country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7769710.stm


I haven't seen anyone post anything about it anywhere within our extended ALL community and I'm interested in discussing it.

Some background, and my biases: For those of you unaware, in the Social Anarchist movement Greece has a sort of magical wonderland myth about it that's sorta hard to convey. Sure we've a lot of questions regarding their politics (language barriers have prevented any real depth of understanding of where they're at), but there's no denying that things are qualitatively different there, in part due to the ridiculous militancy of the Greek Anarchist movement. There's an entire anarchist nieghborhood/zone in Athens that's actually named -- get this -- Ex-Archia, where the cops are pretty much outlawed. Anarchists militants are constantly arrested, sent to jail, whereupon the jails are promptly attacked and the militants set free. A quick Google search will turn up dozens of videos of riotcops being set on fire, while those who threw the molotov stand right in front of them, daring them to counter-attack and set off a national crisis. (Which we may be seeing today.) There's a classic story that's been circulating the movement forever, where back in the planning for the IMF protests in DC there's this huge Spokescouncil of affinity groups from across the country and folks are debating endlessly the little tiny details of identity politics (which clusters in concert with whom, in what profile), implicit hierarchies and consensus process. And there's this group of visiting Greek Anarchists who nobody had been able to really understand sitting quietly, looking around confused. Finally one of them works up the courage to raise her hand timidly and says in a broken and heavily accented English: "Ehh... We from... eh... Greece. Sorry. Our english not so good. ... ... We. Make. Total. Destroy ?"

Which I think is hilarious and pretty much perfectly sums up our endearment for a group that looks sometimes from the outside like ridiculous parodies of ourselves (yarg! teh rioting black bloc), but surely must have some depth on the inside -- and either way they've managed to make further strides against the Greek government than anyone else anywhere else. How many of the 16 year olds shot dead by cops in America have spurred nation-wide insurrection? And if an American Anarchist was shot dead at a protest here, do you really think it'd be an actual threat to the government?


I don't know much about Greece, and compared to most other places I know relatively nothing about their movement (which I'm sure, in the European fashion, blends culturally into Autonomism and all the standard baggage of the wider Left), but even if we don't have the clearest of thoughts on the current situation (besides obviously that killing 16 year old anti-authoritarians is deplorable) I'm interested in at least discussing it. Perhaps those among our ranks closer to Athens can help fill in the picture.

Greece's anarchists regard the quarter of Exarchia as their fortress and they frequently lure police into ambushes so they can attack them with rocks and fire bombs, our correspondent says.

Wow.

Witnesses said that the destruction was not indiscriminate. While clothing shops and banks were badly damaged, the numerous snack bars were all left intact.

Heh.

Although damage was widespread, there were no reports of looting.

Hmm...

I just learned about the fracas in Greece an hour ago in an article posted on Yahoo! When I read the article and saw anarchists being blamed for the riots, I thought "here we go again; another reason to not call ourselves anarchists." I did not pick up on the name of the neighborhood until you pointed it out. Clever.

The reaction to the police shooting a teenager is the following in the U.S. About half of people say the police did the right thing and the little twerp deserved it, no matter what the circumstances. People here are so indoctrinated that police live on a higher plane and can do no wrong it is sickening. No doubt it is reinforced by all of the cop and lawyer shows and the evening news talking about all the crime that occurs, not to mention the public school environment. The other half express outrage, but actually do nothing. If they do anything, it is slacktivism. A few people try to take political action, but as we know, political action only engenders more political action.

The exception is when a white cop shoots a black teenager. If it is bad enough and there is already a high level of tension in an area, then riots will break out, as happened in 1992 in Los Angeles. Otherwise, you can expect plenty of verbal outrage, and perhaps a few vandals doing their thing, but the most public image will be Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton pontificating on how much of an outrage this is. The reasoning behind this is most black Americans, and to a lesser extent a lot of immigrant groups, have a distrust of the cops that resulted from decades of persecution.

rechelon wrote:Since -- in an understandable error of omission that could be rather depressing if one thought about it too much -- we don't have a News category in the Forums of the Libertarian Left,

Oops! Fixed and moved.

Ugh...well, I wish they would focus more on telling people what kind of society they want and all that. According to a news article, there is widespread sympathy with their cause as it is, so there would be more if they focused on the bread-and-butter of Anarchism, not random violence. But the question is, how do we communicate with these people?
But it's always a good sign to see that we're in the news at all. As rechelon said, it can get pretty depressing feeling like our ideas are simply nonexistent in the broader world. We ought to coordinate anarchists worldwide so that every once in a while (like every few weeks) there's non-violent protests that put forth our ideas, big enough that the media can't ignore them and thus edging into the global zeitgeist.

What are you guys talking about? This is awesome.

I just wish I was there.

Are they anarchist, merely anti-government or psychopaths called anarchist by pop-culture and the government?

On Anarchism.net, there was a greek Anarchist who visited the forums. I remember him talking about that Greek Anarchist movement when they attacked a bank or something a few years back. I don't think he was part of that group, but he was a more left leaning Anarchist, and even though English was his second language, when he engaged someone in debate it was often to point out when they were being complete idiots. He's stopped posting now, but I also remember Francois sparring with him while Francois was very AnCap .

I only found out about this event watching the midday news -- I usually watch it for tip off's on stories I can research further. It definitely surprised me.

I think it's inevitable really, particularly as the Greek government has a tendency to screw things up. I remember them passing some law to outlaw gambling and, for some strange reason, the law ended up banning all forms of gaming, be they computer games or poker.

I'd also be interested in the level of nationalism these Anarchists have. Greeks, as I'm sure many of you would know, are notoriously proud of their Hellenic ancestry. I wonder if these Anarchists are doing it for the 'good of Greece?'

The one noticeable thing is that no one seems to know are who are these Anarchists?

What are you guys talking about? This is awesome.

I just wish I was there.

I, personally, wouldn't be say hasty.

Though of all people, it had to be the Greeks.

I'd also be interested in the level of nationalism these Anarchists have. Greeks, as I'm sure many of you would know, are notoriously proud of their Hellenic ancestry. I wonder if these Anarchists are doing it for the 'good of Greece?'

That's a good question, but I doubt it. Most anarchist communities in the last few decades have been built on a solid plank of vocal anti-nationalism, even when it's isolating and a huge detriment to their cause. While in some places with a cultural identity of resistance and/or anti-authoritarianism like for example the US, Palestine and S Korea it would be really easy to play into existing sentiments and latch it onto the nationalistic narrative, anarchists have steadfastly picked fights against their own demons. England's the only semi-exception I can think of (and that's cuz of the legacy of Freedom Press and everything being a duelism with America).

So two questions:

1) How do we respond? (Brad wrote a letter of solidarity to the French youth a couple years ago that was really cool and nuanced. Although I don't know if I would feel right about signing anything other than "hells yes, burn the fuckers down".)

2) Is this sort of general insurrection a useful tactic? Ethical? (As fucking awesome as I'm inclined to emotionally respond, there are issues of collective punishment and, ahem, yes, terrorism. These riots are making good on a threat that has become a major component of Greek politics -- if you push us, we'll deliberately Make Total Destroy all over civilian semi-innocent economic targets as well as actual State and State-Capitalism targets. That threat is why things like Exarchia have been allowed to exist and cops aren't allowed to set foot on University property, but still.)

hells yes, burn the fuckers down

HELL YEA

WE MAKE TOTAL DESTROY

I'm totally down for some pig firebombing.

RoyceChristian wrote:On Anarchism.net, there was a greek Anarchist who visited the forums. I remember him talking about that Greek Anarchist movement when they attacked a bank or something a few years back. I don't think he was part of that group, but he was a more left leaning Anarchist, and even though English was his second language, when he engaged someone in debate it was often to point out when they were being complete idiots. He's stopped posting now, but I also remember Francois sparring with him while Francois was very AnCap ..

DID I REALLY DO THAT? NOOOOOOOOOO! I WANNA BE A GREEK ANARCHIST TOO!

DAMN!

Google's translation has support for the Greek language, so answering the "how to communicate with them" question might begin with things such as:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... narchy.gr/

Also, from Wikipedia, the Greek spelling of "Exarchia" is "Εξάρχεια", useful for searching.

Wordpress.com blogs featuring the "Εξάρχεια" tag: http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 25CE%25B1/

If you find out how to communicate with them, tell them I'm sorry and I wanna join!

I think I am a it more than just conflicted about this. I don't think I am down with all the violent parts of this. As much as I used to be down with something like this, an interest in the libpop militia movements, total hatred of cops and soldiers,huge gun rights and self defense advocate that I am, with every part of me believing that there will be a sort of battle of the bulge near the end, and all of that... I think I had an epiphany some time ago and realized violence is not a good means to an end. I think it just engenders more problems and tends to have perverse results. I think theres also some compassion for WHY the enemy the enemy that stops me from embracing violence. I'll hurl the invisible Molotov, but not the real one.

However I fully support the construction of non life taking Killdozers to demolish every government and affiliate building in Greece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhOGuazES1U

Okay, YES, THIS IS EPIC WIN. We need to get the Killdozer blueprints and send them to Greece. We somehow need to find a way to do this.

thorsmitersaw wrote:I think I am a it more than just conflicted about this. I don't think I am down with all the violent parts of this. As much as I used to be down with something like this, an interest in the libpop militia movements, total hatred of cops and soldiers,huge gun rights and self defense advocate that I am, with every part of me believing that there will be a sort of battle of the bulge near the end, and all of that... I think I had an epiphany some time ago and realized violence is not a good means to an end. I think it just engenders more problems and tends to have perverse results. I think theres also some compassion for WHY the enemy the enemy that stops me from embracing violence. I'll hurl the invisible Molotov, but not the real one.

However I fully support the construction of non life taking Killdozers to demolish every government and affiliate building in Greece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhOGuazES1U

Dude, now here is something we agree on. My reaction was nearly identical to yours. I'm off to seek inspiration in some Tolstoy...

Mike Gogulski wrote:Google's translation has support for the Greek language, so answering the "how to communicate with them" question might begin with things such as:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... narchy.gr/

Also, from Wikipedia, the Greek spelling of "Exarchia" is "Εξάρχεια", useful for searching.

Wordpress.com blogs featuring the "Εξάρχεια" tag: http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 25CE%25B1/

You may also be interested in reading Direct Action News From Greece http://directactiongr.blogspot.com/ , a blog that translates the various manifestos, proclamations and press-releases published by Greek Anarchists on a weekly basis. Wikipedia has apparently finally allowed a fairly decent page on the history of Greek Anarchism too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece

Slim pickings that obviously barely scratch the surface, but still.

That's a good question, but I doubt it. Most anarchist communities in the last few decades have been built on a solid plank of vocal anti-nationalism, even when it's isolating and a huge detriment to their cause.

There was also Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War. I may not have all the facts, but I do recall the Spanish there have a certain nationalism. Though they're not really part of the 'last few decades.'

1) How do we respond? (Brad wrote a letter of solidarity to the French youth a couple years ago that was really cool and nuanced. Although I don't know if I would feel right about signing anything other than "hells yes, burn the fuckers down".)

Well, if we could find a direct source we could spread reports that offer an alternative view of what is going on that runs contrary to the typical media response to anything Anarchist (Anarchist = chaos = bad therefore, we must denounce anarchists. For an example, http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/308 ... f8dd_b.jpg)

2) Is this sort of general insurrection a useful tactic? Ethical? (As fucking awesome as I'm inclined to emotionally respond, there are issues of collective punishment and, ahem, yes, terrorism. These riots are making good on a threat that has become a major component of Greek politics -- if you push us, we'll deliberately Make Total Destroy all over civilian semi-innocent economic targets as well as actual State and State-Capitalism targets. That threat is why things like Exarchia have been allowed to exist and cops aren't allowed to set foot on University property, but still.)

I think it's ethical to the extent that they are 'pushing back' against the cops. My initial, emotional response is a feeling of admiration at the idea of attacking police stations and freeing those arrested in clashes with the police. Standing up to the cops is no problem; really they're just recycling the same tactics cops seem to use on protesters; confront, overwhelm, subdue. The fact that these guys have enough numbers, and enough balls to raise the stakes enough so the police will fold deserves praise.

The problem, I have at least, is innocents. But unless I was there, watching what was going on or had better, trustworthy information (I'm noticing discrepancies in some reports I've been reading. For example, details like whether or not there has been looting. Some say there has, other say there has but only to start fires and still more say there hasn't.) it would be hard to discern how much was propaganda and how much was real, which makes any decision complicated.

DID I REALLY DO THAT? NOOOOOOOOOO!

Indeed you did. And since that debate he hasn't returned to the forum, which is a pity. I think his name was 'Deadeye'.

I WANNA BE A GREEK ANARCHIST TOO!

You can start by learning this phrase, "στο διάβολο χοίρου." Which should translate to, 'Go to the devil pig.' (my command of the Greek language has steadily dried up. I know enough to bullshit my way through a conversation with relatives, but in the end I don't know much more than a few insults and a bunch of questions.)

I think I am a it more than just conflicted about this. I don't think I am down with all the violent parts of this. As much as I used to be down with something like this, an interest in the libpop militia movements, total hatred of cops and soldiers,huge gun rights and self defense advocate that I am, with every part of me believing that there will be a sort of battle of the bulge near the end, and all of that... I think I had an epiphany some time ago and realized violence is not a good means to an end. I think it just engenders more problems and tends to have perverse results. I think theres also some compassion for WHY the enemy the enemy that stops me from embracing violence. I'll hurl the invisible Molotov, but not the real one.

These are my thoughts. It's a poker game. From what I remember of relatives who have travelled through mainland Greece (the Greek ancestry in my family isn't from mainland Greece, but from Cyprus), the government is useless. They can barely raise a decent army and build paved roads in the mountains. The cops flirted with the Anarchists and made a bet. Not only did the Anarchists call them on it, but they raised it tenfold. That, I can understand.

And, the more I think about it, the Anarchists are causing problems in areas controlled by the government as a sort of collective defence. I know I'm going to get it for saying this, but it almost seems as a collectivised version of the AnCap private defence agencies.

I'm off to seek inspiration in some Tolstoy...

I haven't read Tolstoy, but I've heard he's very annoying to read. Someone I know who's reading it now had this to say about it, "There's no personal feeling, no insight, no character, I mean it's just one big long-winded book of words about war, politics, and society. Sure these are interesting topics, but the way Tolstoy's presenting them is just terrible. I feel like I'm reading an anthropological study on Russia instead of a piece of literature."

I don't find violence in any expression to be good for the progress, development and evolution of society. This violence included. I am not proud to be associating myself with you people at this moment. What you sympathises with now is totally irrational and repugnant.

Just like the fake anarchist which blog I read just a few minutes ago who is an active party member of the socialdemocratic party of Sweden. I doubt he really understands what anarchism entails, he became an anarchist at the age of 14. I can't see how such a young man can understand the many facets of anarchism while still in the indoctrination camps of the state. I equally doubt your sincerities of a more "logical"(in the Vulcan sense) and peaceful society.

lordmetroid wrote:I don't find violence in any expression to be good for the progress, development and evolution of society. This violence included. I am not proud to be associating myself with you people at this moment. What you sympathises with now is totally irrational and repugnant.

I agree that violence isn't something positive and should not be condoned. But, my initial response is a certain admiration for having the balls to 'take the fight to them.'

I wouldn't say that giving our sympathies to what is going on is irrational. I might be wrong, but it seems we are analysing what is happening, well at least I am trying to. I would like much more information than what we have so I can get a better picture of what's going -- even the blogs that provide translations of material aren't that great and I find it difficult to get much meaning from anything. In fact, I would like to find out how much of this violence is a carry-over from the initial Anarchist reaction to the activities of right-wing nationalist organisations that have existed in Greece over previous decades. The wikipedia article spoke of the newer generations of Anarchists becomming increasingly violent as a result of repressions, but it didn't discuss it. If it is the case that these Anarchists have learned their violence from past (brutal?) incursions by the police, then I can at least understand it.

Although I might not be morally opposed to violent skirmishes with the police, in the same way I may not morally be opposed to the destruction of corporate property as in Seattle or the Macey's Store front window at the RNC, if I were in a situation where I could decide for or against these tactics, I'd decide against violent conflict based on personal preference and that it makes for bad PR.

In further regard to the context of the riots, as was pointed out in the OP and elsewhere, a kid was shot and it lead to an uprising. At least they give a damn enough to do something about it.

Tactically, if you're in such a situation, you cannot 'win.' The media will be against you, popular support will be turned against you either in the general area or due to the media and the best benefit you'll receive is to come to an agreement where the police will keep out of a specified area. There is a further risk that there will be mass reprisals, particularly if it involves the army.

Just like the fake anarchist which blog I read just a few minutes ago who is an active party member of the socialdemocratic party of Sweden. I doubt he really understands what anarchism entails, he became an anarchist at the age of 14. I can't see how such a young man can understand the many facets of anarchism while still in the indoctrination camps of the state. I equally doubt your sincerities of a more "logical"(in the Vulcan sense) and peaceful society.

Well, to the example of the 14 year old kid, I would argue that often young teenagers discover Anarchism as it provides a way out from the pre-chewed party line they are being fed in state-sponsored schools. He may not have understood every aspect of Anarchism, but then who does? Better yet, learning Anarchist philosophy may even help to boost the kids spirit and keep him from falling hook, line and sinker into statism. Age shouldn't be a barrier against people becomming an Anarchist.

RoyceChristian wrote:I haven't read Tolstoy, but I've heard he's very annoying to read. Someone I know who's reading it now had this to say about it, "There's no personal feeling, no insight, no character, I mean it's just one big long-winded book of words about war, politics, and society. Sure these are interesting topics, but the way Tolstoy's presenting them is just terrible. I feel like I'm reading an anthropological study on Russia instead of a piece of literature."

I have quite the opposite view of his as a fiction writer (he actually disowned his novels later in life) but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to his later work as a political philosopher concerned mainly with non-violent anarchism. I'm not a total pacifist like him (I will defend myself) but I thought I might seek some perspective.

I mostly feel that I should reserve final opinion on this until I know real facts. I shouldn't trust a news article to actually portray anarchists truthfully anyway.

As seems to be happening to many, my half that became interested in Quakerism is very conflicted with my gut emotional support for "make total destroy." It doesn't seem right to target shop keepers that aren't neccesarily alighned with the government, for example.

lordmetroid wrote:I don't find violence in any expression to be good for the progress, development and evolution of society. This violence included. I am not proud to be associating myself with you people at this moment. What you sympathises with now is totally irrational and repugnant.

Okay! But just imagine dozens of Killdozers wrecking every police station in Greece. No losses of life AND making total destroy. Is this not a goal everyone here can agree with?

Come on, pacifists and non-pacifists alike, let's build a Killdozer and send it to Greece in the name of ALL.

Francois Tremblay wrote:Come on, pacifists and non-pacifists alike, let's build a Killdozer and send it to Greece in the name of ALL.

Only if it's a labor-managed enterprise. I'm getting my natural wage dammit!

Consulates are being occupied!

The fact of the matter is that I never expected the last moments before anarchy to be quiet. I fully expect the state will get majorly desperate and lash out, leaving not much room for pacifism. I see what's going on in Greece to be a real chance of anarchism to be actualized in a major way in our lifetime. While I hope all actions are ethical ones, I think the potential here is quite unexpectedly amazing. Can you imagine if a nation became an anarchistic enclave overnight before we are even out of the first decade of the 21st century? This might be the first bolder in an avalanche, though we shouldn't underestimate the potential for outside military intervention. That is always a threat that hangs over the head of any anarchistic Damocles.