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Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Discuss strategies, tactics, tips, tricks, and methods for evading the state and achieving a free society.

Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:19 pm

A number of recent threads here, and a number of debates elsewhere, seem to have essentially degenerated into sectarian squabbles of the "no true anarchist" variety -- left-libertarian vs. misesian, market anarchist vs. social anarchist, etc. -- mostly driven by assertions of bad faith, assertions so general that they almost have to be incorrect, and very selective appeals to the authority of "anarchist history." It seems to me, unfortunately, that the blame is as often attributable to left-libertarian ALLies as to others, and that makes me wonder if the Alliance isn't already running dangerously close to the same sort of pointlessness that so frequently claims anarchist/libertarian micro-movements.

If left-libertarianism is just the next, say, "post-leftism" -- to pick on just one movement within anarchism which has never developed much beyond defensive polemic and vague self-assertion -- then there's not much point. During the process during which Konkin's "left-libertarian" label came by steps (BLL, LL2, ALL) to mean something more like a happy but still antinomic collision between various left and libertarian tendencies, it seems to me that a major goal was to avoid precisely the kind of debates that seem recently to be the rule here. In practice, debates within the Alliance have never been as good at getting down to specifics as at least some of us hoped, and the temptation to spend time on the same old polemics has been too great to resist at times. But the growth of the Alliance over the last year or so speaks to the successes that there have been. Unfortunately, the explicit existence of the Alliance seems to have made is easier to simply pick a team and carry on the same old battles. In some ways, that's a lot more comfortable than the situation through a couple of years ago, when almost nobody called themselves a mutualist, there was no almost discussion between market and social anarchists except the exchange of empty insults, only a handful of us gave a damn about Warren, Greene, Tucker, Andrews, even Proudhon really, etc. In a lot of ways, though, the general shoddiness and practical pointlessness of the ALL vs LvMI "debates," or the continued sniping over the Anarchist FAQ, just makes me think the left-libertarian revolution might be over before it's begun -- and that that is, ultimately, the way we want it (one of those pesky "revealed preferences," if you will.)

I see absolutely no evidence that any segment of the anarchist/libertarian world is really addressing the practical problems faced by most of us in this time of economic crisis, and the "debates" indeed seem to be distractions from engaging with anything practical. The best piecemeal work, dealing with issues like food, shelter, etc., is being done by social anarchists.

In the midst of a time when we should really be showing the utility of our believe, to retreat to a retread of the debates of ten or fifteen years ago -- and we are essentially reprising the debates that gave rise to the Anarchist FAQ -- almost as if the process by which the Alliance emerged had never happened -- just seems unbelievably sad. To see the question of "anarchist history" reduced to choices between, say, a fragment from Stephen Pearl Andrews -- who, despite important anarchist work, did, finally, believe that everyone should essentially "know their place" -- and the supposed programs of still largely unspecified social anarchists, seems equally sad. Having worked for so many years just to get people to look at the individualists anarchists, warts and all, I have to acknowledge a real queasiness at the Wikipedia-talk-page level of debate that still dominates.

In Philosophy of Progress, Proudhon made a very useful analysis of Christianity:

Did Christianity exist in Jesus? I do not address this question to the Christian, but to the philosopher. Did it exist in St. Paul, in Augustine, in Photios, in Thomas, in Bossuet? Does it exist in Pious IX, in Nicholas or in Victoria?

Christianity would be truncated, if one reduced it to any particular profession of faith. The ancients did not know all that the moderns accept; the moderns, for their part, do not retain all that the ancients accepted. At no epoch has the form been the same for all contemporaries. According to Christ and the apostles, the kingdom of the Gospel is not of this world; according to Hildebrand and the ultramontanes, the pope, elevated above all power, is the master of the world; according to the Greeks and the Anglicans, the natural head of the Church is the head of State. All these oppositions can be equally justified by tradition, by Scripture, and by the general system of religions; and it would not be difficult to show that the difference of opinions on the independence or the subordination of the temporal power leads to a similar case in dogma. Who is one to believe, Christ speaking for himself, or the Church affirming its supremacy? Gallicans who separate the two powers, or Russians and Anglicans who reunite them? All that is equally a part of Christianity, and it is in perfect contradiction. What becomes the criterion?

The theory of Progress alone can give a reasonable explanation of the variations of the Christian faith, but on the condition that Christianity loses its Absolute character. That theory considers Christianity as a current of opinions, which formed in the time of Alexander all across Greece and the Orient; which grew and became complicated by a multitude of tributaries, from Augustus to Theodosius; which divided next at Photius; which, under the name of Catholicism, seemed to reach its apogee, from Gregoire VII to Boniface VIII; which subdivided again with Luther; which finally, while frightened of its own movement, attempted to fix itself at Trent, and, killed as Catholicism by the negation of it inevitable mobility, went on to scatter and lose itself, as protestantism, in the sables of American democracy.

To know Christianity is not to affirm such and such a system of dogma, more or less harmonically combined and aiming for stasis; it is to have traveled and visited the Christian river, first in its oriental, Jewish, Egyptian, Greek, Latin, Germanic, and Slavic sources, then in its tumultuous and so often divided course, and finally in the innumerable ramifications where it little by little lost its character and disappeared.

Religion, like the State, like all human institutions, manifests itself in a series of essentially opposed and contradictory terms: it is for this reason alone that it is intelligible. Its true criterion is its variations. When Bossuet pointed to the instability of the dogma in reformed churches, and demanded of his own a constancy of faith which does not exist, he made, without knowing it, an apology for his adversaries, and pronounced the condemnation of catholicism.

Religion is like speech. Nothing is more mobile, more varied, more elusive than human language, and yet language is one in its essence, and the laws of language, much more than formulas of the law and the definitions of theology, are the very expression of reason. Here, as everywhere, the absolute is a pure idea, while the accident is reality itself. Do you say that speech is only a vain sound, grammar a folly, poetry a dream, because the universal language is and can only be an abstraction?...

All truth is in history, as all existence is in movement and the series; consequently every formula, philosophical or legislative , has and can have only a transitional value. Neglect of that maxim is the fecund source of all our aberrations and misfortunes.


If you replaced "religion" and the names of the various Christian sects with their anarchist/libertarian counterparts, you would probably have as sane and useful an approach to anarchist history and tradition as is available to us. The truth of anarchism is not in its factions, and focusing on the individual tendencies probably draws one's focus away from the central problems. If, as Proudhon believed, "it is the clash of ideas that casts the light," then we need the clarification of positions, and we need debate, but we will be defeating ourselves if we substitute assertion and dogma for those much more critical processes.

FWIW...
-Shawn P. Wilbur / Two-Gun Mutualism and the Golden Rule / Corvus Editions

"It may be said in a general way...that we are believers in liberty, in justice, in equality, in fraternity, in peace, progress, and in a state of happiness here on earth for one and all. What we mean by all this defines itself as we go along. It is a practical, working belief..."--Sidney H. Morse
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby DennisV » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:29 pm

Well the most tragic part of it is that the debates are focused mostly on semantics. I believe that in that level who should throw away magic buzzwords such as "capitalism" and "socialism", or "property" which can mean pretty much anything or nothing at all. Also I think that ignoring attacks from some mises community members is a good strategy.

Well, these debates (while exhasting necessarily) can show who is a possible friend or enemy. If "Misoids" cannot be persuaded to ally with us we should search for greener pastures. Besides this is what Alliance is supposed to be, about strategic alliances and actions (not THAT much ideology). Mutualism, agorism and individualist anarchism would go on even if the Alliance did not exist. However it was the "weirdness" of the whole thing that captured the attention of so many. ("Free-market Anti-capitalism" is the kind of stuff that makes cafe-philosophers crazy), and the tolerant stance which is the power of ALL.

Well talking about "practical" stuff I believe that building counter-insitutions is the only practical thing to be done. You (I tell you since I'm Greek and greek anarchism is a little behind in that stuff, though we progress) have Internet and cryptography and the ready institutions that social anarchists have made so alternative economics can be set to help the victims of the crisis. However Mass Media recognition isn't to come soon anyway, since we break the myth that free market=capitalism which benefits both the Left and the Right. Helping the poor can get us Robin Hood-credentials (something that greek anarchists have understood) and underground recognition while showing the outcasts of the system who is their true "ally". So if the main dilemma is the priority of the alliance with Paleolibertarians or Libertarian Socialists, the most wise ally choice is the second (without closing the door to the first) since they have the infracture which can help us set underground economic and welfare institutions. Of course the MAIN problem is not to be drafted in their meaningless crusade against ancaps and the risk of losing the LvM Institute exposure of left-libertarian ideas (and even the debates are a form of vulgar advertisiment). However LvM needs left-libertarians in order to show a more "plumbine libertarian" direction, so that is not that much a problem...

Well you know the situation better guys so organize!

PS: The writer of this reply is an Neo-Machiavellian :twisted:
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:40 pm

It's probably better to just ignore them and find greener pastures, is what you're saying. I agree totally.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:28 pm

Francois Tremblay wrote:It's probably better to just ignore them and find greener pastures, is what you're saying. I agree totally.

Well, I'm less concerned with ignoring "them," than with not wasting valuable time and opportunities. Debate is good, and fun. We shouldn't shy away from it. And my sense is that the people here who disagree with major aspects of left-libertarianism as we're currently working it out, folks like Cork, tend to give as good as they get, and make valuable contributions when we all stay on task enough to have valuable discussions.

Personally, I don't think the anarchist movement is going to get anywhere until we can build spaces where those folks, from whatever school of thought, who are interested in freedom as something other than the subject of an internet debate, can hash things out together. Unanimity of ideas isn't necessary and might not even be desirable. But my personal sense is that most of us have only very foggy notions of what we believe, in practical terms, which is why we seem to always focus on what the other guy doesn't know, and why we can't seem to articulate any meaningful alternative to governmentalist "bailouts" and such.
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"It may be said in a general way...that we are believers in liberty, in justice, in equality, in fraternity, in peace, progress, and in a state of happiness here on earth for one and all. What we mean by all this defines itself as we go along. It is a practical, working belief..."--Sidney H. Morse
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:33 pm

What exactly do you mean by "what we believe, in practical terms"?
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby lordmetroid » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:04 pm

Considering it is you people who are debating... The solution seems quite easy, just move on, right? I sure am running my gig out in the world.
On the other hand, the public debates are what crates new anarchist and makes vulgar anarchists understand their philosophy has holes.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:29 pm

Francois Tremblay wrote:What exactly do you mean by "what we believe, in practical terms"?

Well, we toss around these labels and we cite bits and pieces of anarchist theory, but it's obvious that no "mutualist" out there believes any "mutualist line" or supports "the mutualist model" for society, since there doesn't seem to be a mutualist line or model. Kevin and I agree on some things, and disagree on some things; we're working from some of the same texts, but also many different ones, and we give them all different emphases. You and I similarly agree and disagree, as I'm sure is the case for you and Kevin. And none of us has a full program, or an adequate set of theories. We've got approximations and intuitions that we are or aren't headed in positive directions.

As heated as the debates about "property" get, I haven't seen much indication that anyone I know has a theory of property sufficiently developed and internally consistent to justify the heat of the debates. And "communists" seem to be just as uncertain about these things.

The fact that we nearly all seem to engage in just the kinds of bad generalizations that we accuse others of suggests to me that the problem is deeper than just misunderstanding our opponents. We seem to have serious blind spots with regard to our own premises, many of which undoubtedly hide assumptions that need more investigation.

I'll be the first to admit that, as much as I have elaborated my own understanding of mutualism, there are lots of key elements that remain to be addressed. And even if I could dot all the i's and cross all the t's of my own theory, I would still need to know how to put it into play with yours...
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"It may be said in a general way...that we are believers in liberty, in justice, in equality, in fraternity, in peace, progress, and in a state of happiness here on earth for one and all. What we mean by all this defines itself as we go along. It is a practical, working belief..."--Sidney H. Morse
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 pm

But having a mutualist model of society would completely miss the point wouldn't it. It would be the opposite of what we're talking about. Well, Anarchy can't have models.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 pm

Francois Tremblay wrote:But having a mutualist model of society would completely miss the point wouldn't it. It would be the opposite of what we're talking about. Well, Anarchy can't have models.

Depending on what you mean by "models," it can or it can't. Federation is a rough model for society. The mutual bank is a model for dealing with specific currency and credit problems. The IWW "wheel" is a model for organizing industrial society. The overlapping shop and community councils in Tom Brown's version of syndicalism are part of a model. Explicit property conventions are a model. Arguments about the superiority of laissez faire depend on a model of free commerce. An underhanded conspiracy to enslave everyone on the planet by "paying lip service" to individuality and freedom would have its own models. Etc.

Maybe you don't want to call these things models, but my point is that you can't get too het up about the superiority of your own position or the evil consequences of your opponent's if you and your opponent are actually mostly making it up as you go along, riffing off stuff you've heard about and ought to really read sometime, or accepting as a model for your own thought a theory that may or may not actually be all that sound, etc...
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"It may be said in a general way...that we are believers in liberty, in justice, in equality, in fraternity, in peace, progress, and in a state of happiness here on earth for one and all. What we mean by all this defines itself as we go along. It is a practical, working belief..."--Sidney H. Morse
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:06 pm

You gotta make a sharp difference between describing a process and describing a state (with a small s). We're free to describe as many processes as we want, but not states.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:26 pm

Francois Tremblay wrote:You gotta make a sharp difference between describing a process and describing a state (with a small s). We're free to describe as many processes as we want, but not states.

It seems to me that all anarchism has gotta do is make sure whatever it describes and/or builds promotes liberty and leaves itself open to the next description/rebuilding which will undoubtedly be necessary to keep promoting liberty.

But at this point, I continue to think that the problem is that our descriptions are too sketchy to carry the supposed seriousness of our debates, rather than too specific.
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"It may be said in a general way...that we are believers in liberty, in justice, in equality, in fraternity, in peace, progress, and in a state of happiness here on earth for one and all. What we mean by all this defines itself as we go along. It is a practical, working belief..."--Sidney H. Morse
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:55 am

what about the anarcho-statists? the problem with left libertarianism is the word anarchy itself because it is by definition a self-defeating attitude of organization.

i formed the georgist party of america to try to develop an organization... to be a new and improved collective henry george that is relevant to address current issues.

the death of the libertarian party is the purist attitude. we can still be open-minded and form a party. i really don't know what the green party stands for other than a collection of unrelated misguided positions...but they do seem to do better than the libertarian party in terms of the presidential elections. independents, independence, and reform parties probably have had better local and national success than even both of those and those parties...well what do they really stand for but anarchy or an individual trying to address the crap. so why can't a left libertarian party and organize and be a force to be deal a blow to propaganda-driven politics of the soon to be past?

take a look around you. the united states and the world is being imploded (by the bankers). there is an environment of anarchy being created by the banking and corporate fascists and sold out government structures themselves. we can't let them defeat us and allow us to kill us because we'd prefer to be individuals. we can be a group of a few billion individualized ants. we don't have to kill each other as narrow-minded groups. we don't have to be picked off one by one as individuals.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:04 am

"what about the anarcho-statists?"

What are you going on about.


"the problem with left libertarianism is the word anarchy itself because it is by definition a self-defeating attitude of organization."

How is Anarchy self-defeating?


"the death of the libertarian party is the purist attitude. we can still be open-minded and form a party."

Whatever are you talking about? The story of the Libertarian Party is one of gradual descent into the mire of mainstream thought. Besides, it doesn't matter how "open-minded" you are. Politics is politics.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:05 am

what am i saying, ignoring all the individualistic organic collective oxymoronic melodrama....

we got to unite to defeat the bad while we maintain the recognition there is a big sea of ideas to address the realities to form a better system, albeit, less of a system.

the oxymoron is the point -- it depends on the application of a principle onto a situation.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:21 am

Francois Tremblay wrote:"what about the anarcho-statists?"

What are you going on about.


i'm not sure, and i'm not sure what some of you go on about either.

Francois Tremblay wrote:"the problem with left libertarianism is the word anarchy itself because it is by definition a self-defeating attitude of organization."

How is Anarchy self-defeating?


because it refuses to attempt to be an oxymoron to defeat the morons? i'm not sure, but intuition tells me there is something there behind the point.

Francois Tremblay wrote:"the death of the libertarian party is the purist attitude. we can still be open-minded and form a party."

Whatever are you talking about? The story of the Libertarian Party is one of gradual descent into the mire of mainstream thought. Besides, it doesn't matter how "open-minded" you are. Politics is politics.


how did it descend into mainstream thought when it isn't mainstream? is bob barr mainstream? even ron paul isn't mainstream and he isn't even a Libertarian.

purism, related factors, and the mass of the system it was fighting, killed the libertarian party because it refused to pragmatically work to change the system. politics is politics when it is about propaganda. and there are plenty of libertarian propaganda machines outside of the party of itself, usually at the detriment of the party itself because it didn't work at educating and promoting several sets of views, but rather pushing one set of views, trying to ignore and apologize where it fails and how difficult it would be in the reality of the current world to move in that direction.

there are a lot of complex circumstances. using simplified models to address the complexities isn't going to solve anything unless you're willing to admit they're models and will need many models rather just a rothbard tirelessly debating himself to understand and address the realities.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby manbear2pig » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:30 am

I think the main reason the LP failed is that it didn't challenge the underlying premises upon which "acceptable" political discourse is based. I don't think there is any way we can change the system through politics, friend. Self-organization is not a bad idea, though.

i'm not sure, and i'm not sure what some of you go on about either.


I would recommend looking at our website, all-left.net to find out about that.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:34 am

to put it better and to consider your view it became mainstream, and thus, irrelevant as a 3rd party, is that it failed to aggregate diverse principles in the face of the pressures of mainstream principles to make itself unique and relevant. it is ok to moderate if the structure of the moderation is in the form of an inclusive collection of unique ideas to address relevant issues that the mainstream thought is failing to address. it allowed itself to be dominated by right wing libertarian views, especially in terms of economic philosophy, which are intuitively and justly rejected by left wingers and moderate right wingers. if it is incorrect because it is dominated by an incorrect right wing philosophy, why even bother supporting an irrelevant party?

in terms of social issues it resisted the mainstream views better. it still aggressively fights the war on drugs, anti-war, views, and justly so. while those are probably mainstream anyway, it is in some ways irrelevant unless you recognize the mainstream will never do anything to change and move in that direction. in addition, the right wing social conservative issues were more easily resisted, thanks in parts for the hardliners fleeing to the u.s. constitution party, and since it seemed to aggregate those well in holding it is a state issue because these are difficult issues viewpoint. it is probably sad in that the mainstream libertarian ron paul, is pro-life and holds anti-gay views in terms of recognizing gay marriage (or civil unions) for tax purposes -- coping out by just saying it is a non-issue since taxes shouldn't exist (in an ideal world rather than current reality), but fortunately, he does minimize the issues as state issues.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:36 am

and i don't mean right-wing economic philosophy is completely invalid. i just mean it isn't completely valid. much of it is valid. but there are some areas which are invalid in a georgist, libertarian socialist, utilitarian, et. al. left libertarian sense. they just seemed to push it as their philosophy was completely valid, as rothbard would go to great lengths to make it seem that way.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:41 am

jeepndesert wrote:and i don't mean right-wing economic philosophy is completely invalid. i just mean it isn't completely valid. much of it is valid. but there are some areas which are invalid in a georgist, libertarian socialist, utilitarian, et. al. left libertarian sense. they just seemed to push it as their philosophy was completely valid, as rothbard would go to great lengths to make it seem that way.


and the task before the left libertarian community is to reach some kind of consensus or collection of ideas and how to present those where it is open-minded about the complex nature of issues without revolting the masses from an intuitively flawed singularity or doomed to failure complexity.

the whole point of the party would be to start to tackle that task. will they get it correct the first time? most likely not. it is a learning process that will never be learned through an "ad hoc" organizing committee, propaganda machine, or debate club.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby shawnpwilbur » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:44 am

I'm just going to reiterate my fatigue with "debates" where the participants aren't clear on what they believe, but are ready to straighten everyone else out...

sigh
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:50 am

i guess the question i'm trying to find myself right now is what would be the left libertarian party without calling it "left libertarian" and being considered noncreative and possibly infringing on the libertarian political mark?

Alliance Party, Common Sense Party, Georgist [And More] Party, Anarchist [sic] Party, Utilitarian Party, Organic Party, Collective Individualist of Competing Ideas Party, We Don't Even Know What They Hell We Are Party?
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby neverfox » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:03 am

Shawn,

I'm curious to know if you have any "dream" projects to which you would like to see more energy devoted. I know you've been busy translating and starting the zine so perhaps you've had to table some things.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby jeepndesert » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:45 am

shawnpwilbur wrote:I'm just going to reiterate my fatigue with "debates" where the participants aren't clear on what they believe, but are ready to straighten everyone else out...


like the agnostic trying to debate the christian and the atheist

like the INFP vs. the ESTJ

it is just a starting point, engaging debate to better understand one's own position, while pushing forward what they believe to be valid ideas.
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby Francois Tremblay » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:55 pm

We don't want a party. Leave it alone.
"Man was created by Nature in order to explore it. As he approaches Truth he is fated to Knowledge. All the rest is bullshit." --from the movie Solyaris
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Re: Left-libertarianism, sectarianism and tradition

Postby vaguelyhumanoid » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:13 pm

jeepndesert wrote:i guess the question i'm trying to find myself right now is what would be the left libertarian party without calling it "left libertarian" and being considered noncreative and possibly infringing on the libertarian political mark?

Alliance Party, Common Sense Party, Georgist [And More] Party, Anarchist [sic] Party, Utilitarian Party, Organic Party, Collective Individualist of Competing Ideas Party, We Don't Even Know What They Hell We Are Party?


There shouldn't be a party, but Alliance Party is the best name.

Again, there shouldn't be a party.
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