Welcome
Welcome to the Forums of the Libertarian Left

This is the place for agorists, mutualists, voluntaryists, geolibertarians, left-Rothbardians, individualist anarchists, green libertarians, libertarian socialists, radical minarchists, and others on the Libertarian Left to discuss theory, history, and how to smash the state. Registration is fast, simple, and free, so join the revolution today!

Some left-libertarian links: Alliance of the Libertarian Left, Blogosphere of the Libertarian Left, Agorism.info, Mutualist.org, Voluntaryist.com, Geolibertarian Homepage, Molinari Institute, LeftLibertarian.org, Center for a Stateless Society, ALL Ad Hoc Organizing Committee

Public Masturbation

Discuss the deeper issues beyond politics, such as metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics.

Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Would masturbating in public be considered a transgression in a liberated society? It violates no one's rights and to agress against a public masturbator would be a violation of his identity expression.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

 

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:08 am

I don't think a truly free and liberated society would disagree with such artistic expression.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:10 am

I think a man jerking off on a pile of mutilated barbie dolls is the ultimate expression of individuality.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:12 am

I would agree with you that it should be tolerated, but could you explain specifically it's artistic and individualist value? I can see a potent dialectic unfolding here.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:15 am

Quagmire wrote:I would agree with you that it should be tolerated, but could you explain specifically it's artistic and individualist value? I can see a potent dialectic unfolding here.



As Orwell asserted in 1984, a society must strive to not let creativity be stifled by itself. The artistic value of the action itself is in itself the artistic merit. A person expressing themselves emotionally is to be considered art.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:17 am

As long as one does not seminate onto another without explicit permission, then no rights are violated. It is also healthier for children to be exposed to nudity and sexual acts at their young, developing periods.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:22 am

Sexy_Atheist 69, I agree with your argument there and I appreciate the hipster brownie points earned by quoting Orwell. Howeve,r the question remains of the semen produced by the masturbator....what if it falls onto and dirties the street on which others are walking? Or, worse yet, onto a dining table at an outdoor cafe where people are eating? This according to natural rights theory would violate other's natural rights as it constitutes aggression against their food.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:24 am

Quagmire wrote:Sexy_Atheist 69, I agree with your argument there and I appreciate the hipster brownie points earned by quoting Orwell. Howeve,r the question remains of the semen produced by the masturbator....what if it falls onto and dirties the street on which others are walking? Or, worse yet, onto a dining table at an outdoor cafe where people are eating? This according to natural rights theory would violate other's natural rights as it constitutes aggression against their food.



Could the same be said of chewing gum? Surely, you do not claim that chewing gum is also a threat to one's inherent rights.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:30 am

You are craftily constructing a strawman argument as there exists a distinct qualitative difference between semen and chewing gum. The former possess no inherent contaminants other then what it recieves in the mouth of the chewer; it therefore constitutes a health hazard only post-priori. Semen, on the other hand, develops within the scrotum of a post-pubescent male and is therefore the most quantifiable physical expression of his being. For it to come into undesired contact with the mouth and/or fingers of a stranger, while not strictly constituting a rights violation, is nonetheless uneasy on an extistensial level.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:38 am

Quagmire wrote:For it to come into undesired contact with the mouth and/or fingers of a stranger, while not strictly constituting a rights violation, is nonetheless uneasy on an extistensial level.


You are thinking in a perspective related to that of our current cultural beliefs and practices, where sex is dirty and taboo. In a free society, such contact would not be morally degrading. Therefore, there is no uneasiness incurred when one comes into contact with a stranger's semen. Your argument is moot.

I would say that a free society is accepting of other people's juices, because such a society would be equal, fair, and collective.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:43 am

Hmmm.....at first I was skeptical of your defense of monadic post-New Left hedonism, but upon closer analysis see your point. An egalitarian society, in that it demolishes social constructs and the arbitrary divisions for whose justification they are used, WOULD necessiate the free exchange of reproductive fluids. This, however, returns us to economics....as a social anarchist who supports communal ownership of property, communal ownership of reproductive matter can easily be seen as a natural extension of the same principle. Only applied now to sexuality. It also, in my eyes, constitues a form of voluntarism and solidarity. Would you consider it an application of mutual aid if the semen in question was to publicly fall into the hands of either an elder or sterile male?
Last edited by Quagmire on Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby RonaldMcDonald » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:44 am

...the hell?
While anarchists oppose hierarchy in the name of liberty, right-libertarians support authority and hierarchy, all of which deny freedom and restrict individual development. This is unsurprising because the right-libertarian ideology...is fundamentally anti-life in its assumptions and anti-human in its method. Far from being a libertarian set of ideas, right-Libertarianism is a mechanical set of dogmas that deny the fundamental nature of life (namely change) and of individuality (namely critical thought and freedom). --AFAQ

Capitalists are vampires - parasites who view us as nothing more than livestock to feed off of and have dominion over. --manilaryceTLM
User avatar
RonaldMcDonald
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby RonaldMcDonald » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:55 am

Because I'm sure there just happened to be three people on the forum at the same time who just happened to have something to say on this pressing matter, in the exact same writing style.

You get points for creativity, I guess...
While anarchists oppose hierarchy in the name of liberty, right-libertarians support authority and hierarchy, all of which deny freedom and restrict individual development. This is unsurprising because the right-libertarian ideology...is fundamentally anti-life in its assumptions and anti-human in its method. Far from being a libertarian set of ideas, right-Libertarianism is a mechanical set of dogmas that deny the fundamental nature of life (namely change) and of individuality (namely critical thought and freedom). --AFAQ

Capitalists are vampires - parasites who view us as nothing more than livestock to feed off of and have dominion over. --manilaryceTLM
User avatar
RonaldMcDonald
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:57 am

Quagmire wrote:Hmmm.....at first I was skeptical of your defense of monadic post-New Left hedonism, but upon closer analysis see your point. An egalitarian society, in that it demolishes social constructs and the arbitrary divisions for whose justification they are used, WOULD necessiate the free exchange of reproductive fluids. This, however, returns us to economics....as a social anarchist who supports communal ownership of property, communal ownership of reproductive matter can easily be seen as a natural extension of the same principle. Only applied now to sexuality. It also, in my eyes, constitues a form of voluntarism and solidarity. Would you consider it an application of mutual aid if the semen in question was to publicly fall into the hands of either an elder or sterile male?


No, but it is a service if the semen (assuming it is healthy and still functional biologically) falls into the hands of a fertile female. I envision a society where the collective overrides the need to form strict family units and gender roles (these things often promote inequality). In this context, a female who impregnates herself is free to do so, even when the semen comes from a complete stranger. What is one's semen is also her semen, and her progeny is also the collective's. A village can raise a child far better than individual parental units in a collective, free, equal society. "Rights" can be applied to the collective, as well as the individual.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:06 am

Ronald Macdonald, I strongly fear you are deriding the dialectic unfolding here out of fear of open discussion of alternative sexuality.

Azagthoth, your opinion on this issue strongly fascinates me, as it is akin to both the visions of the Socialist Worker's USA Party and traditional Afro-Carribean tribal arrangements. While I do feel it raises theoretical bluriness, esp. in how to distribute individual and collective rights, it's also a striking example of spontaneous organization, or productive social order emerging unplanned from unrelated individual actions. In a sense, it synthesizes the dissolution of hierarchal and repressive institutions envisioned by the Left with the Misean-Hayekian ideal of the common good being achieved through individual action. It is instances like this, where a discussion of a concept topic leads unexpecredly to a crucial conceptual breakthrough in a seemingly unrelated field.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:20 am

Quagmire wrote:
While I do feel it raises theoretical bluriness, esp. in how to distribute individual and collective rights, it's also a striking example of spontaneous organization, or productive social order emerging unplanned from unrelated individual actions.


This is why collectivism is good: The individual acts for the sake of the collective, as if the collective were his own self. Therefore, the people and individual are one. "Rights" could therefore be omniscient and undiscerning. It is also worthy to note that only such a high state of being can be achieved by a society that is racially and religiously homogenous. At the same time, traditional gender roles and sexual roles must be cast away as mere relics of an archaic past. It is also the collective's duty to purge society of those who do not operate for the benefit of the collective (or, those who stray away from the herd in any manner), so that homogeneity is not compromised. It is but a small price to pay for total equality and collectivism.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:28 am

Now you are beginning to lose me, to be quite frank. I agree with you regarding the importance of masturbation freedom and its potential for uprooting antiquated societal institutions, but homogeneity is also incompatible with such a society. One only need pay a visit to the Folsom Street Fair in San Fransisco to observe that the collectivization of sexuality and publicization of erotic identity and expression is best served in a multicultural environment. I personally have participated in an event called the Drop, where I drop my pants to the floor and initiate defecation while a group of male onlookers observes and masturbates. The group consisted of several white men, two men of colour, and one transgendered individual of ambigious ethnicity. The thought that people of such widely varying cultural backgrounds could come together and mutually appreciate the same display of sexual expression taught me the power of sexuality in overcoming arbitrary race/nationality barriers established by Capatlism. It's further evidence for sexulity's potential role in dislodging anti-human social hierarchies.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 am

Collectivism, when applied to reproductive fluids, is an incomplete theory. One must simultaneously deposit said emissions where it is collectively optimal for both the individual, AND the collective.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:38 am

RonaldMcDonald wrote:Because I'm sure there just happened to be three people on the forum at the same time who just happened to have something to say on this pressing matter, in the exact same writing style.

You get points for creativity, I guess...



Do you not consider the repercussions of a mutually oppressive society? One in which a person cannot spread his seed without fear of reprisal?
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Quagmire » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:41 am

Sexy_Atheist 69, you're just transposing the Misean theory of human motivation from economic to reproductive affairs, and in doing so changing the focus of this conversation from the broader implications of sexual liberation to chance and causality. Someone may choose to mastuarbate publicly, but if we're to follow Libertarian assumptions it would only be to produce an orgasm for themselves, with any supra-individual betterment that may produce being entirely unintentional. We would have to take this back to social psychology if we were to obtain a better picture of the situation you're describing.
Quagmire
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:43 am

Quagmire wrote:Now you are beginning to lose me, to be quite frank. I agree with you regarding the importance of masturbation freedom and its potential for uprooting antiquated societal institutions, but homogeneity is also incompatible with such a society. One only need pay a visit to the Folsom Street Fair in San Fransisco to observe that the collectivization of sexuality and publicization of erotic identity and expression is best served in a multicultural environment. I personally have participated in an event called the Drop, where I drop my pants to the floor and initiate defecation while a group of male onlookers observes and masturbates. The group consisted of several white men, two men of colour, and one transgendered individual of ambigious ethnicity. The thought that people of such widely varying cultural backgrounds could come together and mutually appreciate the same display of sexual expression taught me the power of sexuality in overcoming arbitrary race/nationality barriers established by Capatlism. It's further evidence for sexulity's potential role in dislodging anti-human social hierarchies.



The drop represents a manner of deviation towards a totally patriarchal society. The mere act of one dropping while the others pleasure themselves is typically male in the context of many controlling the few. We need to progress towards a society in which everybody drops their pants, and masturbates at once; in harmony.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Azagthoth » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:46 am

Quagmire wrote:Now you are beginning to lose me, to be quite frank. I agree with you regarding the importance of masturbation freedom and its potential for uprooting antiquated societal institutions, but homogeneity is also incompatible with such a society. One only need pay a visit to the Folsom Street Fair in San Fransisco to observe that the collectivization of sexuality and publicization of erotic identity and expression is best served in a multicultural environment. I personally have participated in an event called the Drop, where I drop my pants to the floor and initiate defecation while a group of male onlookers observes and masturbates. The group consisted of several white men, two men of colour, and one transgendered individual of ambigious ethnicity. The thought that people of such widely varying cultural backgrounds could come together and mutually appreciate the same display of sexual expression taught me the power of sexuality in overcoming arbitrary race/nationality barriers established by Capatlism. It's further evidence for sexulity's potential role in dislodging anti-human social hierarchies.


Firstly, your argument fails on two basic levels: it wrongly assumes that semen and fecal matter possess equal intrinsic value, and you take use of frail anecdotal evidence to support your contention (not to mention, your experience takes place in a society writhed with inequality and an inherent lack of collectivity).

Fecal matter is simple waste, and semen serves the function of prolonging the livelihood of a species -- a critical component of the human race. Fecal matter nurtures the ground, which in turn nurtures our crops, and therefore nurtures us. However, animals can serve this purpose as well. Fecal matter is much less valuable than semen, which is concocted solely of procreative value. Multiculturalism make be fine for a short time, but it does not hold up for the future. Only a society that understands the mobility and importance of sexual juices can use semen wisely, and therefore, create for the future. The ethnic homogeneity is needed in order for a collective to adapt to its environment well. For example, fair-skinned Nordics have adapted to the lack of sunlight, so that they may have sufficient vitamin D for bodily function. African-descendents do not have this ability. As we all know, cross-breeding does not add genetic material. You would lose adaptive capabilities in a multicultural society, which works well with capitalism, as it needs people to move about and do whatever it takes to support its greedy system. A collectivist society, on the other hand, is remotely staunch in its position; in fact, you would rarely see a collectivist society rove. The social and environmental synchronization brought on by the homogeneity's adaptation would preclude the need for multiculturalism.
Last edited by Azagthoth on Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Azagthoth
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:47 am

Quagmire wrote:Sexy_Atheist 69, you're just transposing the Misean theory of human motivation from economic to reproductive affairs, and in doing so changing the focus of this conversation from the broader implications of sexual liberation to chance and causality. Someone may choose to mastuarbate publicly, but if we're to follow Libertarian assumptions it would only be to produce an orgasm for themselves, with any supra-individual betterment that may produce being entirely unintentional. We would have to take this back to social psychology if we were to obtain a better picture of the situation you're describing.



What if a system of reward/punishment is devised within society itself to not only reward the individual for depositing his seed, but also rewards the public for participating and encouraging? I think it best to perhaps contact a social research institute to perhaps begin clinical trials. I'm envisioning something akin to the stanford prison experiment, only with more semen.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby SexyAtheist_69 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:52 am

I cannot stress enough that while fecal matter and semen might not have the same intrinsic value, they do share a similar ARTISTIC value. For instance, african tribes have for centuries adorned slip pots, and tribal masks with bodily discharge of all types. When considering intrinsic value within a multicultural society, I think the argument is more cut and dry: semen and fecal matter are equal yet separate. One must consider the merit of each with a pragmatic point of view.
SexyAtheist_69
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Public Masturbation

Postby Francois Tremblay » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:56 am

Image
"Man was created by Nature in order to explore it. As he approaches Truth he is fated to Knowledge. All the rest is bullshit." --from the movie Solyaris
http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Francois Tremblay
 
Posts: 3709
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:48 pm
Location: United States of Coca-Cola

Next

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron
suspicion-preferred