Forums of the Libertarian Left

[Superdog]

These can be a sensitive area in Anarchist circles. I'm curious where people lie for the most part. Are there any conspiracy theories that you buy into or definitely don't? Most of the standard American conspiracy theories (9/11, JFK) seem like misguided patriotism, attempts to explain how something like that could ever happen to America! And it feeds into JFK's martyr status.

I'm willing to buy aliens live out there somewhere, but whether they travel to Earth to zoom mysteriously by over and over again, I'm skeptical of that.

[Rorshak (1313)]

Well besides the true purpose of aglets being sinister, I don't really buy into conspiracy theories. I have yet to see one that provides reasonable evidence for the claims.

[Brainpolice]

I suppose my main problem with conspiracy theories is that it seems to miss the fundamental point, which is that there is a general problem of authoritarianism rather than a more specific problem of a certain group having control. I think that focusing so much on who has the power sort of functions as a distraction from the much broader issue of power in the first place.

I also think that most conspiracy theories are outright false (based on little more than antedotes and correlation/causation conflations) and are easily disprovable, and otherwise they may contain a grain of truth that is blown out of proportion. Perhaps there are a few conspiracy theories that are more tenable than most others, but it's not something that particularly concerns me.

[ctmummey]

they can be great fun. i used to listen to art bell late at night when i couldn't sleep. "rule by secrecy" is a good read along these lines tracing conspiracy theories all the way back through human history to the reptile aliens who created us as slaves to mine precious metals for them. strange that i still haven't read r. a. wilson.

[Stoub]

Conspiracy theories are hilarious fun. Good for the whole family. Admittedly there are some that actually happened (and failed) but frankly I just consider myself a skeptic for most sakes.

Yes, Booth killed Lincoln in a conspiracy. Frankly government is akin to a mafia conspiracy and uh... many of the coup d'etats happening after every meal in third world countries are due to conspiracies. But I'm still a skeptic about stupid conspiracies like the uh... well Art Bell is just a nutjob. Hilarious but a nutjob none the less.

[Francois Tremblay]

I believe in every single conspiracy theory that has ever existed.

[manbear2pig]

"Conspiracy theory" is often used to smear what should really be fairly mundane observations, such as that the education system is designed to create a population compliant with the elites, or that the Federal Reserve was created for some reason other than Civic Virtue...etc. But then the Alex Jones-style ideologies tend to miss the point, which is that this is simply the nature of power, not some plan by Illuminatists or reptilians to take over the world. I don't doubt that people with positions of power that we can hardly even imagine engage in esoteric rituals, but I think their motivations are most likely exactly what they look like: power, and maybe even a little bit of warped idealism. (Did kings actually think they were just doing their sacred duty? Maybe. More importantly: who cares?)

Another problem with conspiracy theories is that the more elaborate they are, the more futile the resistance becomes. If a group of reptilians has already planned everything up until now, would they really be unable to prevent a mass uprising, as the Jones crowd presumably wants? (Or, to be a bit more snarky, would they really allow Ron Paul to be elected??) Actually I think I have heard the Jonesians say that the anarchist movement is being funded by the Bilderbergers...so then why even bother? We might as well just kill ourselves now.

So conspiracies have to be evaluated on their own merits. The problem is how easy it is to get sucked into thinking that everything is connected -- which is obviously not true, in that context.

[Ceapmann]

Any conspiracy theory involving a coverup as an explanation for a lack of evidence is unfalsifiable.

[Stoub]

Actually manbear2pig is right in many aspects. Call me a political realist but in mu opinion the only reason anyone does anything politically speaking would be power. To gain and to preserve their power. Granted perhaps they work through an ideology, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised (Ideologies tend to fuck people up worse than meth). Napoleon cemented a popular status through his uh... "public education" and well... let's face it we all tend to act in order to either preserve ourselves or thrive (as politicians do with power) and let's be honest sometimes even at other people's expense.

Hell I eat a burger from Wendy's I'm guessing a cow got fucked royally for that. (No I'm not petitioning for PETA and in fact I'd rip the flesh off a living rabbit if it were in my hands)

My point is that politicians are adverse to our own self preservation and thriving. That's one reason why we stand opposed to them. We can psychologically construct little things to make ourselves seem like selfless crusaders like morality, rights, and all that crap but keep it simple stupid. Hell I don't care how moral a society is if you don't let me have my money and my property and my shit and stuff then I'll fuck you up in anyway I can. Granted I'd prefer a way that isn't detrimental to myself, that's why I'm not out throwing molotovs around and yelling lyrics from Sex Pistols songs with a silly little woman's stocking on my face... those assholes.

Anyways, fuck em. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and what makes you stronger will kill you.

[buddhadada]

I believe in every single conspiracy theory that has ever existed.

As a Discordian, this is an essential tenet of my beliefs.

Incidentally I've never read R. A. Wilson either.

[praxthym]

[Superdog]

I guess my favorite part of conspiracy theories is the idea the bad guys hide clues in plain sight for us to find. Like the NWO and the Illuminati plan on creating a one world socialist government, and they're going to leave secret messages in plain sight. Just to fuck with us, I guess.

[Stoub]

I guess my favorite part of conspiracy theories is the idea the bad guys hide clues in plain sight for us to find. Like the NWO and the Illuminati plan on creating a one world socialist government, and they're going to leave secret messages in plain sight. Just to fuck with us, I guess.

And the reptilians occasionally drop their cover don't they?

Those sons of bitches with their flickering lizardy eyelids.

[Brainpolice]

Call me a political realist but in mu opinion the only reason anyone does anything politically speaking would be power. To gain and to preserve their power.

There's a sense in which I agree with this and sense in which I have reservations. One one hand, it could be said that liberty *is* about empowerment, particularly if we emphasize "positive liberty" (which is not "positive rights", mind you), in that liberty is a basis or means out of which people can achieve their desires. On the other hand, I would want to make it clear that the desire for liberty is *not* the same thing as the desire for power in the authoritarian political sense of arbitrarily controlling others. So this gets into a question of precisely what we mean by "power". "Power" can be construed in a rather petty or harmless sense, and it could be construed in a more overt sense of physical domination of others.

[Stoub]

Call me a political realist but in mu opinion the only reason anyone does anything politically speaking would be power. To gain and to preserve their power.

There's a sense in which I agree with this and sense in which I have reservations. One one hand, it could be said that liberty *is* about empowerment, particularly if we emphasize "positive liberty" (which is not "positive rights", mind you), in that liberty is a basis or means out of which people can achieve their desires. On the other hand, I would want to make it clear that the desire for liberty is *not* the same thing as the desire for power in the authoritarian political sense of arbitrarily controlling others. So this gets into a question of precisely what we mean by "power". "Power" can be construed in a rather petty or harmless sense, and it could be construed in a more overt sense of physical domination of others.

Well I speak in terms of politicians. And yes libertization is empowerment, but purely empowerment of yourself over yourself.

If the government fell for example I'd have more power over what I can do. Unless someone else puts a gun to my head and tells me not to. Might makes right, eh? But in all seriousness, I'm not against slavery in that way unless I was a slave.

I dunno where that comes in actually... but back to the topic of conspiracy theories. REPTILLIANs are known for their scaly penises.

[neverfox]

Well, I tend to shy away from using the word "power" to talk about the actual use of force because it really represents a potentiality/propensity, what something is capable of doing and affecting and 'being affected by'. Gaining power in and of itself doesn't mean anything in an actual sense since it doesn't map to actual events. In common language I suppose we could say that power maps to the idea that the use of force by the powerful is "allowed" or "seen as legitimate" or even "no one is strong enough to stop it". But in fact, from a sort of quasi-Spinozan perspective, increasing power can be the essence of ethics and substance. But to simply talk of power as negative would be, in a sense, to presuppose a great deal about it. I realize that I'm probably mixing the metaphysical with the political when the latter is more likely the subject here but I felt like sharing.

[Brainpolice]

It seems to me that there are quite a few different senses of "power": (1) sheer capability or strength, usually in a physical sense and in terms of the oppurtunity to act in a given way (2) the power of ideas, or psychological power, which can be expressed in terms of both personal motivation (or even the mere "feeling of power") and control over others and (3) privilege based on either social status or legal sanction, in which one can get away with doing certain things that one otherwise would not be able to get away with, often while determining what others can and cannot do.

The 3rd sense of "power" is what libertarians and anarchists tend to deal with the most. The 2nd sense of "power", and perhaps also the 1st sense of "power" to a lesser extent, seems to be what people like Neitzsche and Stirner dealt with the most. However, it seems like there is a degree of overlap between all of them, particularly in the sense that they can be derived from eachother or be mutually dependant on eachother. For example, legal or political power can be dependant on both ideological legitimacy and the sheer oppurtunity of certain people to obtain it.

[Stoub]

All that being said, anything, ideas especially are malleable. Yes power can mean anything, but so can liberty, justice, morality, and vaginismus. Basically I just call it power. You could call it vegetable genitalea. Though I wouldn't see your logic there, I wouldn't think less of you. (Okay I'm lying I would) But I suppose my half-witted defense of the word Power was ill-fated from the moment I put my finger tips to the keyboard.

[Francois Tremblay]

All that being said, anything, ideas especially are malleable. Yes power can mean anything, but so can liberty, justice, morality, and vaginismus.

That's why we make them mean what we want them to mean, and hate anyone who doesn't use them in the exact same way as we do.

[Forty_Ounce]

I believe in every single conspiracy theory that has ever existed.

Am I the only one in this thread that understands what Franc just said?

Oh and BTW Franc, fuck you for saying before me (and more elegantly) what I was planning to say

[Forty_Ounce]

Any conspiracy theory involving a coverup as an explanation for a lack of evidence is unfalsifiable.

True, but only temporally, not necessarily.

[Stoub]

Any conspiracy theory involving a coverup as an explanation for a lack of evidence is unfalsifiable.

True, but only temporally, not necessarily.

I am not one to say Always or Never.

[Forty_Ounce]

Any conspiracy theory involving a coverup as an explanation for a lack of evidence is unfalsifiable.

True, but only temporally, not necessarily.

I am not one to say Always or Never.

Always is always forever
As one is one is one
Inside yourself for your father
All is none all is none all is none
It's time to drop all from behind us
The illusion has been just a dream
The Valley of Death may not find us
Now as then on a sunshine beam
So bring only your perfection
For then life will surely be
No cold no fear no hunger
You can see you can see you can see

-Charles Manson

[Stoub]

Are you equating me to a psychotic cultist?

[Forty_Ounce]

Are you equating me to a psychotic cultist?

That wasn't why I originally posted those lyrics, but now that you mention it, yes. Yes, I am.