Forums of the Libertarian Left

[goodiemonster]

I was going to write the much more catchy headline of "Anarcho-capitalism and Market-Anarchism: How far they agree and wherein they differ" but didn't have room... Anyway, with the recent discussion on Ancaps it got me thinking "What is the difference between ancaps and market-anarchists, if any?". Not wanting to be an apologist for the corporate-state-nexus I quit using the term "anarcho-capitalism". What I've run into, though, is that quite a few social anarchists/libertarians view "market anarchism" as a synonym for capitalism then immediately begin foaming at the mouth, screaming about hierarchical relationships, and oppressive wage slavery. Can somebody clue me in here?

[Noor]

I am a market anarchist, but I'm repulsed by so-called "anarcho-"capitalism day by day.

Market anarchism is a broad umbrella term that includes ancaps. Market anarchism is basically anyone who believes in the basic ideas of free markets, including mutualists and some libertarian socialists. Ancap is specifically pro-private property, apathetic/agnostic on hierarchies, neutral on rent, interest, and profit, and even though most are anti-corporations, they predict a corporatist pattern for a free-market society.

That's all I can think off the top of my head for now.

[Francois Tremblay]

Refuting "anarcho"-capitalism by means of "anarcho"-capitalism

http://struggle.ws/anarchism/writers/an ... uteAC.html

[shawnpwilbur]

And thus Francois Tremblay invokes Iain McKay to vanquish the spirit of "an"-cap.

Terrifying...

[Francois Tremblay]

I wish I could vanquish your spirit, you rat bastard.

[Noleaders]

That was bad article

It was exactly what id expect from something called "an anarchist criticism of anarcho-statism"

[RoyceChristian]

I would propose that Anarcho-Capitalism has a lot more in common with Marxism than they would otherwise like to take credit for. Particularly in that they both propose to have militant political parties take control of the halls of power in order to facilitate the change to a new society. I would hazard the suggestion that Anarcho-Capitalism falls outside the realms of the larger genre of Market Anarchism because the Market Anarchisms would promote revolutionary methods to achieve a free society.

[Noleaders]

Particularly in that they both propose to have militant political parties take control of the halls of power in order to facilitate the change to a new society

Plus there view that primitive accumulation would have happened any way under a market system.

[Brainpolice]

I think that Noor's analysis is fairly good. I generally view "market anarchism" as an umbrella term for anything ranging from anarcho-capitalism to mutualism, and perhaps some varients of libertarian socialism, while "anarcho-capitalism" is a more specific ideology. While some use "market anarchism" as a more friendly term for "anarcho-capitalism", I don't think that the difference can be entirely boiled down to semantics.

[goodiemonster]

Thanks @noor and @Brainpolice, I think that answers some questions.

@Noleaders Re: "primitive accumulation". Is that the same as absentee landlordism? anarcho-land-grabbism?

@Francois struggle.ws seems to be down right now (9:38 am PST). Will check back later.

@RoyceChristian Interesting take. So you're saying since many ancaps are voters and partyarchs, they would utilize the state such as Marx proposed?

[neverfox]

I would propose that Anarcho-Capitalism has a lot more in common with Marxism than they would otherwise like to take credit for.

Royce, you get a cookie from me. They are equally obsessed with ownership of the mean of production.

And what Noor said...

[goodiemonster]

@Francois Great article.

[Juan]

"Tucker came to hold the position that no rights exist until they are created by contract. This led him to controversial positions such as claiming that infants had no rights and were the property of their parents, because they did not have the ability to contract."

Oops. Seems tucker was as clueless as some of the evil ancaps....

[Noor]

Hey Franc, you ought to give me a (mint chocolate chip) cookie for coming across that article and linking you to it on Skype. xD

I really like it also, since most other similar articles strawman ancaps.

[Juan]

I would propose that Anarcho-Capitalism has a lot more in common with Marxism than they would otherwise like to take credit for.

I'm not sure that's a founded assertion. On the other hand, mutualism and so called 'social anarchists' seem to embrace more than one marxist idea...

Or maybe you mean it as a smear that tries to suggest that ancaps are as fanatical as marxists ?

[neverfox]

Oops. Seems tucker was as clueless as some of the evil ancaps....

Yeah, some loon named Stirner got a hold of him.

[Noleaders]

@Noleaders Re: "primitive accumulation". Is that the same as absentee landlordism? anarcho-land-grabbism?

It's the process that took place during the early development of capitalism where the peasants where robbed of their land.

[shawnpwilbur]

I'm not sure that's a founded assertion. On the other hand, mutualism and so called 'social anarchists' seem to embrace more than one marxist idea...

Which ideas would those be, Juan?

[Noleaders]

mutualism and so called 'social anarchists' seem to embrace more than one marxist idea...

Proudhon came up with the ideas at the same time, possibly before, marx did. If anything marxists are borrowing proudhonian ideas.

[Brainpolice]

Didn't Marx end up effectively denouncing Proudhon as a "petite burgeousie" anyways? I tend to use the comparison between Marx/Proudhon and Marx/Bakunin to illustrate the *point of departure* that lead to early anarchism. And not just as a strategic matter.

[Juan]

Which ideas would those be, Juan?

What about the so called labor theory of value for starters ?

[Marja]

What about the so called labor theory of value for starters ?

Adam Smith was a Marxist agent who travelled back through time to spread the Labor Theory of Value, and also to start the Black Plan.

[Marja]

Didn't Marx end up effectively denouncing Proudhon as a "petite burgeousie" anyways? I tend to use the comparison between Marx/Proudhon and Marx/Bakunin to illustrate the *point of departure* that lead to early anarchism. And not just as a strategic matter.

Are you referring to the differences between Proudhon's views and Bakunin's, or the similarities between their views in contrast to Marx's?

[Juan]

Adam Smith was a Marxist agent who travelled back through time to spread the Labor Theory of Value, and also to start the Black Plan.

?

[Zanthorus]

Adam Smith was a Marxist agent who travelled back through time to spread the Labor Theory of Value, and also to start the Black Plan.

?

Different labour theories of value prevailed amongst classical economists through to the mid-19th century. It is especially associated with Adam Smith and David Ricardo.